Circus of Safety Episode 11

Ladies and gentlemen, I’ve got no excuses this time; this was all on me. Welcome to what can clearly only be described as the Circus of Safety Video Cast. Andy, my mate on the bottom, Des, my mate to the right, and myself aim to take you on a journey through the world of workplace safety with a bit of laughter, unprofessionalism, incompetence, and downright humour. So, welcome, Des. How are you today?

Going good, mate. I’ve had a roller coaster of a week, but I’m good and ready to go for the show.

Nice. Well, clearly, mate, what I really value about you, Des, is you’re just like this rock, mate. You know, I know what’s happened, and look at you. Your computer’s not even on mute, mate. You’re like, “What’s going on, Andy?”

Oh no, come on! Are you for real? Well, hang on. So, this is you wonder why the band broke up, why, like, look at this.

We’ve got people, we’ve got followers on our LinkedIn page posting photos of mugs, and you two clearly have a Circus of Safety mug. All I’ve got is my keeper cup. What’s going on, Andy? I thought we were friends.

We are. So it’s not what you know, then, on this game; it’s clearly who you know, right? And obviously, I don’t know the right people.

Well, no. There’s one in the post. Just like the chick, right? Yeah, I keep getting time and getting paid for this show, but I ain’t seen that happen yet either. Although, I just want to take this opportunity to thank Son Onite. That’s who powered me today. Look at the quality of my camera, and apart from my incompetence about muting, I think I sound dashing. So again, big thank you to the teammates Son Onite for powering me through the show because clearly I need all the help I can get.

Listen, Andy, how have you been this week, mate, apart from clearly gloating with your fantastic six safety mugs?

It’s been a good week. It’s interesting that you talked about the band nearly splitting up a few weeks ago until the mug incident recently. Well, a few minutes ago, I generally thought that this week we were closer than ever because we all tried to help and rally round Des when he was in distress. I just sort of felt the love, and it was lovely.

Did we really rally around Des, or did we just really want to be nosy?

We called him. We tried to call him. We did. It was a beautiful three-way harmony, really, wasn’t it?

I don’t know if Des appreciated it much. Not giving him an opportunity to say otherwise, so we’ll just keep moving, and Des can’t tell us that he didn’t appreciate the love and care that went out to him this week.

Listen, actually, just how’s your week been, mate?

My work’s been amazing. I was busy as a beaver, although I’ve never known beavers to be busy, I guess. It’s a fascinating thing. Or I wonder if “busy as a bee” is a more appropriate terminology. But that’s how I live my life, and I’m in my happy place. Yeah, living the dream. Thank you, Andy, for asking.

Just before we crack into this week’s show, I want to reflect on episode 10 because this is obviously episode 11. I thought we’d hit the bottom, right? I thought we couldn’t take the show any further, and I was just looking back through some of the notes. Although she did get a mug as part of us, Sarah Tizard, I mean, who would have thought? We went from the dizzying heights of talking about safety and professionalism to talking about Dr. Seuss. The topic, honestly, I was trying to engage in this professional show, and here we’re all discussing the qualifications of Dr. Seuss. I mean, how’s anyone supposed to take this show seriously when we talk about things like that?

So hopefully, this week, we can kind of lift our game a little bit and talk about something professional. But as always, before we do that, Des, I need to ask you two, please make sure we’re covered, mate. Sure. Over the last couple of weeks, I’ve been looking into disclaiming differently a bit more. Last week, I came across a disclaiming theory that’s new to me, and it’s the theory that a lot of liability in disclaiming comes from a person’s behaviour rather than the disclaimer itself. It’s a behaviour-based disclaiming TR out today.

So, instead of a normal disclaimer at the beginning of the show, I’m going to spend the duration of the show observing the disclaiming behaviours of us, the hosts. Wow, okay. Oh, wow. Things I’ll be looking for are comments of a general nature and avoiding behaviour that might cause someone to rely on our dialogue instead of seeking specialist advice. Also, disclaiming behaviour generally, and I’ll be able to provide feedback on areas of improvement and intervene if I see poor disclaiming behaviours. Whoa, whoa, whoa. I mean, you’re going to jump in and tell us what to do? Yes, absolutely. It’s a behaviour-based disclaiming.

Well, so, I’m just de, I’m just sorting out my show notes here, mate, because I may come across as disorganized, chaotic, not having a clue. Looking at my show notes would suggest, oh no, you can’t see that. There’s actually nothing on them. So I’m going to make a note, the very first note on my show notes, to check back in with you later to see how we did. Is that a fair call? I think so. Yeah, okay, cool. Anything else from you before we carry on the show? That’s all for me. I’m keen to see what we get on the wheel this week. We’ve got a few topics that I want to talk about. Oh, do you want to share what topic are you looking forward to? I really want to talk about passion and safety. Wow, love it, love it. Andy, anything particular for you, mate? Yeah, risking hazards, there, safe old Andy. Yeah, listen, I’m actually looking forward to, hopefully, it’s about ‘Are good intentions enough?’ I guess. The way my week’s gone, I’m really to chat about that.

So, without further ado, let’s bring up the wheel. Are we ready for this, gentlemen? Absolutely. All right, here we go. Oh, wow. Well, well, well. Clearly, some people are just lucky, right? Let’s shed some light on this psychological safety. This was one that Andy asked us to put on the wheel this morning, and it’s landed. So, I guess, without further ado, Andy, I mean, listen, what are your thoughts, mate? One word, your excitement, I guess, or shock. Landing up on the wheel, psychological safety. I mean, am I even saying it right, first question? Yeah, I think you’re saying it right. I was keen to put it up on the wheel because I don’t think it’s particularly well understood of what it actually is. And I think when I mentioned it on the wheel, the response from you guys was, ‘haven’t we sort of touched on that already with the well-being, wellness?’ But it’s actually something quite different. It’s related to that field, but it is actually quite different. So, what I think would be quite cool is to push it back to you guys and say, ‘What do you think it is?’

Mate, who’s hosting the show? Just because, listen, I’m just going to be the guy asking the questions because I actually have no idea what you’re talking about. So, let’s jump over to Des. Des, I mean, what are your thoughts? I mean, listen, let’s be fair. I think we all agree Andy’s a bit of a bit keen on this. He’s always landing on his court. What are your thoughts on psychological safety? Not a lot, actually. I could not give you a textbook definition of what it is. I’ve got a sense of what it might be about, and it might be completely misguided. But an example might be where you have a points-for-reward system for doing safety-related things. If you don’t get enough points, you get some sort of retraining. If you get enough points, you get some sort of reward. So, that carrot-and-stick approach might be considered like a psychological safety initiative. I think that’s well and truly being sort of debunked as a particular thing, but maybe that’s an example of psychological safety. Keen to know what Andy thinks.

Okay, well, that’s cool. Yeah, that’s great. I’m glad somebody has at least had a guess because I don’t even know where to start on this, to be fair. Again, just kind of clearly showing who the intelligent intellectual beings of this show are. So, psychological safety. I mean, yeah, for me, I said I got to be honestly, I think that was one of my comments, Andy, earlier on—isn’t this something we’ve already touched on? I guess this goes back to the Circus of Safety dictionary. Do we need some clarity around what these terms actually mean? Otherwise, we end up getting wrapped up in all this terminology, don’t we? We end up using terms interchangeably, and it happens to the best of us.

But, Alas, just before we jump on and carry on, you’ve been challenged to define the word ‘special.’ Mark Gummer has suggested it would be great to hear that if you’re willing to share. I was trying to pick the context, and it might be from the disclaimer about people seeking specialist advice. So, how do I define ‘special’ in that context? Would you consider a subject matter expert? Would you consider what is happening right here right now specialist advice? No, and that would be an example of poor disclaiming behaviour—awkward.

Yeah, okay. Cool. Well, maybe Mark can put some more definition out. His definition, I guess, would be the way to go. But let’s jump into it. Back to you, Andy. So, this was your topic, mate. You wanted this on the board. Can you help us understand a little bit more about where you’re coming from and what this is all about?

Yeah. So, it’s a tag name for a field that you’re probably all familiar with. We all call it something else, but it’s basically psychological safety. It’s this belief that people won’t be punished or humiliated for sharing ideas, questions, concerns. It’s all tied in with a safe learning space that you’ll probably be familiar with that you create when you deliver training.

Cool. So, a good example of poor psychological safety would be the show, right? I feel belittled. You know, you two have got mugs; I’ve got nothing. Would that be a good example of poor psychological safety?

It would be. It would be. But then again, you have made the point that you want the mug, and you took that psychological risk there to put it out there that you felt left out. So, that’s the sort of behaviour. It’s understanding that we need people to be engaged in safety, whatever that is. The only way we’ll get the truth is if people feel comfortable to report stuff. So, it does link to other aspects of safety, but it’s not really safety in the classic sense, if that makes sense to people. D, does that make sense to you, and does that provide any kind of greater clarity on where Andy is kind of going with this topic?

No. It’s making me think about making it safe to speak up and challenge things, reminds me of safety climate, would that be fair to say?

Yeah, absolutely. Safety climate, absolutely. Like I’m looking outside, and the weather’s looking pretty good. So, let’s remember to think about when you’re delivering these high-level, glorious pieces of advice, could you just… from dealing with the lowest common denominator here. What are we talking about in terms of safety? I mean, this safety climate—is it another catchphrase, another piece of jargon, another thing? Because I mean, I’m looking outside; it’s slightly overcast, mild wind, but moderately good temperature. What are you talking about when you talk about safety climate?

It’s the environment in which the safety culture exists. That’s my understanding of it. But I’m happy to put my hand up and say that by no means am I an authoritative source on that. I really don’t know, and I would defer to Andy on that one.

Ed, I mean, you see, this is beautiful because this is a great example of it. Like I took the brave step of saying, let’s put psychological safety on the wheel. I can’t even say it. Based upon this conversation, I’m unlikely to suggest anything for the wheel ever again because I don’t feel logically safe to do that. I tend to agree with you. I tend to agree. Absolutely. And the way that my screen set up now is I’m at the bottom, and you two are above me looking down at me, and that’s quite intimidating, you know? So, that’s what psychological safety is—where we don’t have that sort of connection. Yeah, it’s this idea where everyone… you see, that’s better [Laughter]. Now it’s an important part of safety, but it’s not, I don’t think, safety itself, and it links to everything else. The interesting thing about psychological safety is it wasn’t developed from the safety perspective, it came from organizational learning. But because it’s got the word safety in there, people think it’s actually about safety, but it’s not really about safety. Thank goodness. I just want to say a massive shout out to Des. I think, to be fair, he’s potentially going to save the show here. He’s put a lot of time and effort into this, and I’m just going to read you what he’s put in, straight from Wikipedia. To be fair, it’s better than any of us have done.

So, psychological safety is the belief that one will not be punished for or humiliated for speaking up with ideas, questions, concerns, or mistakes. In teams, it refers to the team members believing that they can take risks without being shamed by the other team members. The psychologically safe team members feel accepted and respected. It is also the most studied enabling condition in group dynamics and team learning research. Psychological safety benefits organizations and teams in many different ways. There are multiple empirically supported consequences of team psychological safety. Most of the research on the effects of psychology has focused on benefits, but there are some drawbacks that have been studied.

Thank you. And yes, great to see he has acknowledged its Wikipedia. So, how do you think about that, Andy? Does that help sort of wrap it up a little bit?

Well, that’s absolutely it. What I found interesting about it is that it really does link with the whole new approach to safety, what was the safety differently type, that whole field because that’s what that is. That’s about engaging with the workers, letting them understand what the hazards and risks are, and allowing them to manage them within a certain framework. The whole learning team’s thing again adds huge value, but that’s all about creating an environment where people are open to speak about what the problems and challenges are.

I just think it was an important thing to put on the wheel because people don’t actually know what it is, but they talk about it quite a lot, and it comes up quite a lot in conversations that I’m having. That assumption that it’s to do with well-being, but it is linked to well-being, right? Because if you don’t feel comfortable to speak up, then that leads to frustration. Frustration leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, and hatred is the path to the dark side. Wow, come by.

Yeah, we were having a chat offline before we went live, and I think what’s causing the confusion for me, based on what you’re saying, Andy, and reading through what DEAC put up there in the chat. I think it’s the way it’s been terminologized. What’s throwing me is the way we’ve called it psychological safety. I think that’s what’s confusing me. It was a little bit like the term we spoke about there around values needing to be a verb. So, if you use the wrong way to describe something, is that what’s causing the carnage?

And I think I’m just getting caught up in that. I can’t seem to get my head around it being an entire field on its own, if that makes sense. Oh, it’s absolutely not because it’s entirely dependent on the organizational structure and the relationships within that. So, could we safety could also be referred to as organizational safety? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In your world, it’s creating that safe space to speak up without fear of attribution. And you do that really well in your training sessions, unless the only time you don’t do it well in your safety in your training sessions is when, like me in there, you set me up to fail. Not that I hold grudges, but again, I guess I want to.

So, this is where it gets a bit difficult, right? Back in the day, I called myself a professional mountain biker, professional rock climber because I got paid to take people mountain biking and rock climbing. I mean, that was pretty cool. And then clearly, I don’t know what went wrong. I ended up in safety, right? I mean, when you’re at the top, there’s only one way to go, right? And that’s to the bottom of the pit. But like a lot of what we did in that space with the guys that I worked with and with my mates when you’re out mountain biking or you’re out rock climbing or whatever, you’re almost egging each other on by rubbing each other up and giving each other a bit of a hard time. ‘Mate, you can’t hit that jump,’ you know, or ‘What’s wrong today? You don’t have your wheat bix,’ or whatever the case might be. I guess it gets a bit confusing in that space because that created, because of the uniqueness of our environment and the closeness of our team, we kind of rubbed each other up quite a bit, which then ended up pushing us to jump bigger jumps, to surf bigger waves, to go off bigger waterfalls.

So, I guess I’m getting confused. Is that a bad thing? I don’t know. Is that what’s causing my confusion? Is that what’s causing my confusion? Because, as someone in the fire service, you become so tight-knit with a crew of four people. You give each other grief, you rub each other up. I mean, look at us, look at the banter we’re causing. But I guess that’s where it gets a bit confusing for me, a bit too touchy-feely, to be fair. But on the flip side, you do create amazing environments when you facilitate, which is for people in, you’re making me blush, DE.

I mean, what are your thoughts, mate? You’ve been pretty true-qui on this. I’m actually keen to know what impact this has in the context of just culture and no blame because that’s something that’s kind of been front of my mind for a long time. How can this apply to that?

I think they all interlink. But this is what’s interesting about this. Safety, as I think I’ve mentioned in the past, I don’t think safety is a subject in itself. It’s not a subject. It’s just the application of knowledge and resources from different fields. To me, reading about psychological safety, it draws heavily from organizational learning, from just culture. Its all those sorts of things where it’s just being badged something differently.

I think Brenton made the really valid point. I was only really drawn to it because of the word safety, and that sort of drew me into it when the reality is it’s more to do with organizational learning. It’s more to do with the root causes of accidents than it is to do with stopping bad stuff happening at the operational level, if that makes sense. It’s not about controlling hazards. This is about people not reporting stuff. This is about people saying, ‘I’m constantly getting electric shocks, but I don’t want to report it.’ It’s all that sort of stuff.

Yes, does it also include me feeling comfortable to call people out for being an idiot? If somebody’s clearly gone outside of the boundaries of what was discussed, clearly disregarded any conversations that have been had in the group, does that include me having the comfort and the ability to call that person out and say, ‘Mate, listen, you didn’t play your part. You didn’t step up. You didn’t do what we agreed. Is that part of that as well?’

Yeah, getting a little bit tired. Yeah, that, and I’m so glad you brought this up because this is why I found the whole field particularly interesting. You want people to report stuff, but that doesn’t mean that it’s a free-for-all because you’ve got to hold people to account. There’s a tendency with psychological safety is you tilt too much to the side of, ‘Oh, we don’t want to harm the feelings,’ yet the reality is that people actually want boundaries, even though people say, ‘Oh no, I’m a free spirit.’ People want boundaries. Well, I think it’s more than want; it’s a need, isn’t it? We need boundaries; otherwise, we have Lord of the Flies going on, wouldn’t we?

Absolutely. People want boundaries, but they also want certainty. And as we’ve spoken in the past, if you go back to risk, the definition of risk is the effect of uncertainty on objectives. The more uncertainty, the more risk. So, you want this psychological safety. You want people to feel comfortable, but there’s got to be a framework that they feel comfortable within. And I think that’s where people might miss it. It’s not a free-for-all. It’s not everyone’s opinion really, really matters, but only within this certain framework does everyone’s opinion really matter. I mean, let’s see, next one, I’m going to start pulling out daisy headrests and stuff, you know what I mean? But does it actually really matter? Does everyone’s opinion actually really matter? It does to them, but in the greater scheme of things, if we had everybody’s opinion and everybody getting involved, do we really think we’d be progressing?

Sometimes people just need to, and I guess I’m getting a little bit controversial here because this is possibly the way my week’s gone, but you know, do some people just need to get behind and just do as they’re told and just go with the fact that maybe they don’t actually know it, and their opinion in some situations doesn’t matter?

Oh, I think the opinion matters to the individual. So if you value their opinion, now whether you act on it or not is a different thing, but whether you valued it and give them an opportunity to speak about it, that’s essential in creating a positive safety culture, safety climate, or whatever. But it’s having the ability to air your views as to hold them inside is what makes, is what allows organizations to learn, which is what psychological safety is really about.

Okay, come on, let’s go. Let’s bring it up. No, but I just go back to my time, the next five minutes depend on whether you get a mug or not. I just go back to my time, you… I don’t want one of your mugs. You can keep it. Give it out to give it out. Getting a mug. No, but like this. I guess, and this is where maybe I guess we’re getting too fancy with stuff. But back, I’m just reflecting back on my time in the outdoor industry. You know, I often took people down a canyon trip, for example. There was this beautiful little trip we took them down and 9 out of 10, it would go beautifully, right? It’d be awesome.

We’d be stopping on the riverbank, we’d be having picnics, we’d be swimming in the river, and I’d be asking people, ‘Hey, what do you think? What do you want to do? What are you up to?’ There were the other occasions where stuff would go sideways, right? And the weather would turn on us while we’re in there, people would start getting cold, you could see the signs of hypothermia kicking in, but at that point, I didn’t actually care what they thought, and their opinion didn’t matter. My job was to get them out of there and to get them out of there as quickly and as effectively as I could, and I wasn’t asking them what their opinion was. I actually didn’t. It didn’t matter to me. I was watching signs and symptoms. You could see signs and symptoms because these were inexperienced people in an inexperienced environment that was foreign to them, that probably never experienced hypothermia before, they probably never experienced or understood what it does to your mental state. So I wasn’t going to start asking their opinion. I was just like, ‘we’re doing this whether you agree or not. Let’s go and we’ll do it.’ So I just get worried that, and I don’t know if I’ve gone off on a tangent here, but that’s where this worries me a little bit. Everybody’s opinion matters as well. I don’t actually know if it does at all times.

Oh, I think it always does to the individuals whose opinion it is. You’ve got to take that into account because that’s how you meet the need. That’s how you meet the needs of your group. That’s how you create dynamic and add value to people. People want to feel valued. It’s a case of mind over matter. I don’t mind and you don’t matter [Laughter]. But that’s where I’m going though, Des. Like, yes, I get that your opinion matters to them, right?

But at the end of the day, there was an expectation that I was going to provide a safe experience. And so at some point, their opinion went out the window about how we’re going to do that, and it was about my training, my experience, my skill set that got them out of that river. And for 18 years, I got everybody home safe. So were they psychologically safe though? That’s what I would throw back at you. Physically safe, but were they psychologically damaged at that point when people are getting hypothermic, when things have gone sideways?

You can’t have it all. You can’t have your cake and eat it at the same time. If you’re on MRO and you get caught out in a storm, your first priority is to get off that mountain, right? Absolutely, because you can’t have one without the other. You can’t have everything. Unfortunately, life, not people would like to think life is like that, but you can’t, you know? Anyway, I digress.

Hey, L, just want to jump in because it’s not all about us, Andy. Our mate Keith Harvey, long time listener, avid friend of the show. Thanks, Keith. He’s referencing Queensland Work Safe around safety climate, and he’s saying safety climate is the perceived value placed on safety in an organization at a particular point i n time, these perceptions and beliefs can be influenced by the attitudes, values, opinions, and actions of other workers in the organization and can change with time and circumstance. I guess, just like the weather in Orland, right?

Yeah, look, that’s getting definitions at way above my head. But I’m really curious because you guys made a few comments in that last little spiel which I disagree with. One of yours, Brent, was that we have to hold people to account. And I question the value in doing that. For instance, if you hold someone to account for a particular incident for their actions, you haven’t prevented the next person from doing exactly the same thing.

I would argue that you don’t do things in isolation, right? So, you could hold somebody to account and still look at why. If somebody deliberately went out of their way and did something that was not agreed upon in planning and developing a plan, they surely have to be held to account, right? Like, how much more time, effort, and energy do you need to put into collaboration for someone to deliberately go out and do something totally different? I mean, do you ever ask why they did that thing or why did we put someone who was willing to deliberately not do the right thing into that role where they could do that?

You did ask that person that, and they just said, ‘Well, because that’s what they wanted to do.’ And I think my worry is that this is the attitude of individuals because no one’s being held to account. No one is taking responsibility for their actions, and therefore, they can do what they want because nobody cares, nobody’s going to say anything about it. I think we’re walking on a knife’s edge here around putting it all back on the organization and not actually saying to people, ‘You know what? You do have a part to play in this, and you need to take responsibility for your actions.’

Yeah, holding hands by yeah, but we’ll be talking about another topic that’s on the wheel. So that’s a great… Great. So anyway, so let’s swing back to you, Des. I mean, your thoughts. Does psychological safety have a place in safety Ville, and if so, what is that place?

Well, based on that definition that we had earlier, I think so. I think an organization is not going to be able to improve, get better, become safer unless people have the ability to feel safe to speak up. And I don’t think it’s a complicated thing to do. You just have to not be a rat when people speak up. Just listen. You don’t even have to do anything. Just listen.

Does not being a rat constitute advice? Do we not… Is that not a behaviour?

Maybe that’s a good point. Maybe I need to stop myself and have an observational intervention. I think you probably should.

Okay, now, fair call. Fair call. Andy, I mean, your thoughts? I mean, you’re obviously quite passionate about the topic. This is your topic on the board. Do you feel it’s got a place in Safety Ville, and if so, what is that place?

I think absolutely. It’s essential, but it makes the water muddy. That’s the terminology that’s being used. I think we end up with all of these different terms that are captured in other places, and I think trying to get everything together, which goes back to this idea of the Safety Dictionary and Thesaurus that we’re developing, that will resolve all these issues. In fact, if we do a good job of that, we won’t have a show. We’ll just spin the wheel. Okay, today, page 17, off you go, read it through. We’re all awesome at it.

But I think we all live and breathe this because we always go on about we need reporting, we need the information, and the only way that people will report stuff is if they feel safe to report it. And if they don’t feel comfortable reporting it, they don’t. And if we don’t know what’s going on, we’ll start fixing the wrong things. So, in my mind, it’s absolutely an essential part of it. It’s just called the wrong thing.

Well, about you. What about you? Come on, run a bit more, Brenton. Oh, did I annoy De? Did I? I think so. Well, obviously not a safe place for Des.

Um, we can say what we like; the lawyer’s not here. Hey, so now he’s ACC. I’m getting text messages being accused of kicking off the show. This has turned to this band. I don’t know how we’ve survived 11 shows. But listen, again, I don’t want to sound like I’m contradicting myself. I think it’s got a place in safety.

I tend to agree with you, Andy. I think we’re getting caught up in a misunderstanding around what that is. For me, it is very important. Can you maybe just message Des and let them know we’re still live? Sent me an expletive. Should we start reading that out?

So, my worry is we’re going too far to the one angle. We’re so worried about not hurting people’s feelings, and I get that. But I think it’s taken us too far to the left or right, or whatever angle it is. I don’t want us to see a place where people like myself don’t feel safe or secure to call people out when they do stupid things. I’m not going to lie about that. There are some absolute Muppets out there. I don’t want to see us create a place where people can’t be called out, where people are too worried about saying what is, you know, calling stuff out. We need to be able to call stuff out, and we need to create a safe place for people to do that. It can be done respectfully and with respect to the individual. I’m not saying we go out there and belittle people.

My worry is as soon as somebody goes in and says something, calls somebody out on something, they’re like, ‘Oh, you’re hurting my feelings.’ Really, stick it up, buttercup, and take responsibility for your actions. I guess my worry is that we’re going too far the other way, more worried about the individual receiving the feedback than the individual delivering it. But that’s kind of my thoughts. I think that’s a really example, and it sort of reflects society to a degree.

What’s interesting in the safety context though is that you’re almost balancing the psychological harm versus the physical harm. If you don’t tell if you hurt somebody’s feelings, then they lose them. Ram, you know, it’s the magnitude is completely different. So, yeah, I mean, it does hard. He’s just a bit off the pace, isn’t he? Oh hey, there’s well. He’s had a tough week this we man. So, let’s leave it there. So, hey, while Des tries to sort himself out, Andy, I mean, I guess I know you’ve probably touched a little bit, but any sort of do you see any sort of pros to psychological safety?

Yeah, I think you’ve got to do it. I think I wouldn’t call it psychological safety in organizations. I think it’s just another term and jargon that is just not helpful. Let’s try and minimize the different terms we use in our field and let’s just get on. Hey, Des, welcome back, mate. Thank you. I noticed I’ve been relegated to the bottom of the screen. So, due punishment. I think that’s just culture in action right there. Yep. Sorry about that. I don’t know what happened. My computer just disintegrated. Maybe it was overcooked, all the poor disclaiming behaviours just overcooked the system, and here we are. Hey, so Des, mate, hopefully, I know you’ve probably missed part of the conversation, but I mean, your thoughts. Do you see any pros to psychological safety in safety?

Yeah, totally. I think if you’re going to genuinely learn from practices and safety incidents, you need to have a psychologically safe place for people to talk about it and not fear retribution, not fear outcomes that would be unfair. And that’s beautifully articulated. I mean, what are your thoughts? Do you see any traps to psychological safety, Des? I mean, with this term being around, yes, people might feel like if their input is not valued, they might not want to speak up. So maybe there needs to be a decent feedback loop, and I think New Zealand, in general, does that pretty well. The whole consultation process, New Zealanders are very strong in that, and I think it’s a good way of making a safe place for people to speak up. Cool. Awesome. Andy, what about you, mate? Any traps in psychological safety that you see?

Yeah, I think the biggest trap I’ve indicated is around the term itself. I think the actual content of it, the principles behind it, is good, but I just don’t think the words ‘psychological safety’ are that helpful. Misleading. No fair enough. That’s a good call. Yeah, I think I’ve made my views on the traps pretty clear. My worry is we’re going too far in one direction, and this psychological safe place needs to be safe for both parties, the person receiving the feedback and the person delivering without feeling threatened that they’re going to have an HR complaint or something. In fact, what I should should do is call out to see if there’s any HR lawyers that would be prepared to defend me in a court before I start kind of rabbiting on a little bit too much more. So if anyone out there is prepared to defend me in my big mouth, listen again, clearly I’ll do anything for free stuff.

I’ll stop you there, Brent, as be behavioural-based disclaiming intervention underway. Oh, you kidding me? Hey, hey, Des, I just got to ask before we start wrapping up the show, have you been keeping score?

Yeah, in fact, you know, this is disappointing all around. The disclaiming liability performance of this group is pretty disappointing. Wow, that is um, that’s it. That’s it. Wow, that’s it. That’s all we get. Hey, Andy, we needed to create a psychologically safe space, mate. I need a number. I need a number. You can’t say that. Give me a number. Okay, seven. Awesome. Anyway, seven. Hey, I’m going to leave Andy to last on this next part of the show, but there’s any thoughts, mate, wrapping up this topic, psychological safety?

Yeah, I think um, I’m glad we talked about it actually because there’s a lot to unpack there, and it affects a lot of other areas, investigations, training, you know, just culture things like that. It’s a topic that could go anywhere. Yeah, well said, Des. And yeah, my thoughts exactly. I think what I’ve probably taken away from this is um, it reinforces even more so, and I think this is one of our traps in safety, right? Somebody will get this buzzword, say psychological safety, right? And we’ll go racing off down this path and put a whole bunch of time, effort, and energy into that. Then the next thing will come up, right?

I don’t know, training, and we’ve got to race them off down there, and we tend to put things in boxes, right? But I think if anything today’s topic has really highlighted for me how everything is intertwined, right? It’s not quite a difficult field. When I say field, I mean the field of safety, to put things in boxes, right? Because there’s so many connections, everything is so interlaced. So, that’s been a big highlight for me this show for sure.

Andy, I mean, again, this was your topic of choice. Do you want to wrap us up with your thoughts on the conversation today and where you’re currently sitting versus where you maybe were sitting at the start of the show?

No, I think um, I think you’ve um, the pair of you have seen the light. Clearly, you felt comfortable to express your views. It’s never really been a problem with you, Brenton, and I’ve known you for a number of years. I think you’d feel psychically safe anywhere. It’s just whether those around you would. So, but I think I just, for me, I wanted to put it out there. I was doing a bit of research in this field recently. It was just something that I’d never really considered about the origins of and the fact that its origins are in organizational learning, but it’s been captured as safety just skews it a little bit, I think. And um, maybe it’s a bit of a marketing thing. I don’t know.

No fair, fair enough. I’m just, I’m scrambling here because you just reminded me of something. And I’m just going to read you a lyric from, what I’ve got to say, is probably ultimately my all-time favourite band of all time. And some of you may know this band. It’s the, I don’t know what’s happened to them. It’s a little bit, but anyway, The Blood Hound Gang. Is anyone, you guys are familiar with The Blood Hound Gang, Fire Water Burn?

Well, they’re like the Beatles, but they’re better, anyway. And they got a song called ‘Shut Up,’ and I just want to read you the chorus. And this really sort of, I guess, I don’t know, maybe sums up my approach to life. And I don’t give a rats if you don’t like me because I don’t like you because you’re not like me. And I don’t give a rats if you don’t like me because I don’t like you because you’re not like me. So there we go. I feel psychologically safe after saying that. Might be an appropriate time to bring up a milestone that we just reached.

Brenton, what do you mean? What are you talking about? What milestone? You’ve just, with your word count, has now cracked 100,000 in a single show. So well done. Hang on, I’m so confused. I’m super excited that I’ve cracked a milestone and I’ve broken a record. But are you, are you telling me you’re keeping count of how many words I use in one show?

Yeah, I suspect that’s why my computer crashed a moment ago. Wow. Very happy for you. Wow. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Well, um, since we’ve broken milestones again, do appreciate it. Maybe I can get a mug now for breaking that record. Just want to take the time to reach out and shout out to one of our new followers. A big shout out, I’ve been watching our stats, and it’s really fascinating to look at the follower stats. I’m sure you’ve been looking at those in the background too, team. We’ve really got Perth. Our viewers in Perth are really driving up the numbers. So, a big shout out firstly to Perth. You are coming in from behind, and you’re driving up our numbers there. Big thanks again. The three of us would love to come to Perth and do a live show in Perth, so let’s see if we can try and make that happen in 2024. That’ll be awesome.

Just want to shout out to, and again, I hope I get this right. I do apologize if I get this wrong, Jason Baroy. I hope I got that right. Jason is a human resources manager and a health and safety adviser based out of Machaka in Tazman in little old Al. Big shout out to you, mate. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks for listening to the Circus of Safety. It’s been nothing but a pleasure.

So, boys, Andy, anything exciting in the next two weeks for you, buddy?

Heaps of exciting stuff. Developing some really cool online training modules at the moment. Fantastic, having a lot of fun doing that. Really good.

Des, what do you got coming up in the next two weeks, mate?

Business as usual, but a shout out to Kate Lyon for posting about her Circus of Safety mug. Did you see that, Brenton? She had that. Did you catch that post? I don’t know. Yes, of course. Sarah Tizard got a mug as well. I met with her last Friday, had a lovely cup of coffee. She’s really appreciated. Good for her. Great. That’s good. Really pleased to hear that. So, I am looking forward to getting my mug shortly because I know what’s happening.

I don’t know if you guys are getting this because I don’t know if you’re as approachable as I am. But getting a lot of messages in the background, a lot of feedback through the LinkedIn channels and the phone calls. A lot of people are asking about how they get their mug. So just want to let the people know out there in the big wide world of the Circus of Safety. We’re finally actually taking this to another level of professionalism. We’ve got a show planning meeting coming up. As part of that, we will be working out firstly how I’m getting a mug, so hopefully, I can get one at that planning meeting. And secondly, how the rest of you out there in the world of the internet can as well.

Now on that note, and I might be jumping the gun here, boys, but I’m pretty sure we discussed this at some point. Following this planning meeting, part of the planning meeting is we’re going to be, and feel free to start sending out expressions of interest now, the Circus of Safety is expanding. We are going bigger, we’re going better. In order to bring the next level of professionalism, we’re going to be looking for our first employee. Now, I’m not going to lie to you, this is not a paid gig. You will be expected to work incredibly hard, long hours. It’s not psychologically safe. I mean, the pressures of maintaining the show, guys, is just phenomenal.

So, you’re going to have those pressures on you, but we will be reaching out. We’re going to be looking to engage an intern in 2024. So, if you have got any expressions of interest in being an intern, we’re probably not going to have a job description. There probably won’t be a contract. You will be expected to do everything, and you will be reprimanded should you fail to do so. So yeah, please feel free, reach out, let us know how we’re going.

But before we wrap up the show, I’ve only now got one thing on my show notes, and that is, De, do you need to say anything in terms of wrapping up this behaving safety disclaimer?

I don’t have any particular feedback specifically. I think generally we’ve got a lot of work to do in the disclaiming space. Disclaiming behaviours were disappointing all around. Even for me, so we got a lot of work to do in that space. Can we have a number? Seven. Cool. Wow. Great to see you taking it on the chin, mate. Can’t wait to catch up again soon, team. Look forward to the feedback and the comments on today’s show. It will be on Spotify later on today, first thing tomorrow morning, and look forward to sharing those show notes with you as Milestones again, do appreciate it.

Well, don’t forget to jump on our Patreon account, support the show, help us buy some coffees. That’ll be great. And if you want the team to deliver a conference experience like none other, feel free to reach out to me because I’ll actually get stuff done.

Catch you later, be safe, and see you next time. See you, guys. Andy, Andy, look up. Yeah, there we go. Okay.