Circus of Safety Episode 5 Podcast:
Circus of Safety Episode 5 Transcript:
Thank you [Music]. Well, here we go, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls. Welcome back to the Circus of Safety, Episode Five. Gentlemen, we’re here, good morning. Hey, listen to our audience out there, welcome back. We’re Des, Andy, and myself, trying to guide you through the chaos and the circus that has become safety. So, thanks for joining us, Episode Five, absolutely, absolutely amazing. Now, now, guys, I know, I know we’ve all been really busy over the last, sort of, week or so, since the show last aired a couple of weeks ago. But listen, I thought I’d take the time. we got quite a, we got, we’ve got a bit of feedback off that last show, which was really cool.
Obviously, it shows that people are listening, people are engaging, and, and this is going to be quite intimidating, but people are actually taking on board what we’re talking about, right? And they’re engaging in the conversation, which is when we, when we catch up, you know, that’s what that was the whole point of this, right? So really exciting. So I just want to share some feedback on the last episode, before we get into it, and, and, and we’ll crack it on from there. So this has come from Craig, Craig Gardner, so thank you, Craig, if you’re watching today, a big shout out to you for contributing, on the last show, and his feedback, and, and, I’ll read it to you.
“The conversation related to qualifications is important,” so great, great thing that it came up on the wheel, right? much of it is because of the ineffective vocational education, which is a fascinating approach. If any education, including health and safety, is not relevant and applicable, it will be forgotten. The qualification just demonstrates you had the time and money to stick at the course. If you improve the business, the culture, and the lives of those you’re responsible for or can influence, then you are qualified.
So, yeah, some great thief, some great engagement there up and some more food for thought around our topic from the show last week, right? It’s quite a unique take on the on the whole position, which is good. I actually caught up with Craig last week, had dinner with him, and it was, we talked, which was great.
So, Andy, are you, are you taking this virtual thing into the real world, mate? Yeah, there’s no difference to me, safety, safety, but it’s virtual. I really just said, “Wow,” before we start making big statements like we’re trying to save lives. Des, listen, can you just, cover us off again before we start going down this Rabbit Hole? I’ll make sure that we’re protected, yeah. And look, I have to say, you know, who would have thought people could be so passionate about disclaimers, and once again, I’ve received free scathing vitriol from numerous listeners about the disclaimer from last episode.
Are you serious? Yeah, so this time the complaint is that it was too verbose, too much legalese, incomprehensible. Wow, okay, right, tough crowd. Look, to be honest, it’s hard not to take this personally. I’ve convinced myself to rise above this and improve and to add value. So that’s what we’re about, that is, so for fear of being accused of a lack of audience perspicacity, I’ve redrafted this disclaimer and pitched it at a level that reflects the harsh criticism I’ve been receiving. So here it goes, okay.
Anyway, once upon a time in a magical land called Safetyville, a group of family-friendly creatures embarked on a journey to learn about workplace health and safety. This podcast, the Circus of Safety, is here to share their exciting tales with you, add a little listeners. But before we start our adventure, here’s a little note just for you, dear little explorers. Welcome to Safetyville, where giggles and learning go hand in hand. Our podcast is like a treasure map, guiding you through the forests of knowledge and the mountains of understanding about staying safe at work. But remember, just like a real Adventure, it’s important to be cautious and prepared. While our podcast is full of fun stories and helpful tips, it’s not a substitute for growing up advice. Before trying anything you hear about on our show, be sure to ask your parents, guardians, or otherwise grown-ups for their thoughts and guidance.
They know what’s best for you. Sometimes, workplaces can be as tricky as Enchanted mazes, but don’t worry. Our podcast is here to teach you how to spot hazards, use safety tools, and be a smart and careful little worker. From magical factories to make-believe offices, we’ll explore it all. Safety is our guiding star. Remember, Safetyville is a make-believe place, and the creatures you’ll meet are just characters from stories. Real workplaces might be a bit different, but the lessons you learn here can help you stay safe in any world. So put on your imagination hats, hold y our curiosity close, and let’s dive into the enchanting world of workplace health and safety together. Knowledge will be the bravest of the work and safety Villas ever seen.
Stay safe, stay curious, and let the adventures begin! Wow, wow, geez. but I don’t know what, right? I don’t know what you do between shows on your hands, mate. I’ve put my heart and soul onto this, Brenton, and nothing less. Okay, people, today’s lesson might, if it means anything, so you’ve had a, applause from the chat. We’ve got Nia, Snap, and, in London, Kaya might there, and they’re in his storage just like, yeah. So, yeah, thank you. And I think I might be having a bit of a slow internet day by the looks. If I’ve got there right. Yep, cool. okay, so, okay, I’m hoping, yep, we’re still here.
No, a little bit scratchy, but we’ve still got you. Oh, so Andy, have you done anything interesting over the last couple of weeks? I went out for dinner with the clergy, it was awesome. Of course, we talked about the benefits of vocational education. Oh, sorry, you mentioned by Brenton. Yeah, it was good, good to catch up with Craig. caught up with a few of them people. Finished reading that, everyone’s hanging out, up and about self-regulation. If it can improve safety in the chemical industry, and you’ll be pleased to hear according to the report, it can. what is interesting is that they actually compared it to no regulation as opposed to external regulation.
So the headline that you can take is that self-regulation improves safety in the chemical industry, but if you delve a bit deeper, it’s a very specific piece of research that doesn’t necessarily tell the whole story. It would be nice to see it compared to actual regulation, third party regulation, yeah, absolutely. And yourself, what you’ve got, what you’ve been up to this well?
I alluded to a bit of an update in the safety clutter space at the end of the last episode. I thought I’d forget about mentioning, but, but I’m, I did remember and basically there’s an organization I’m associated with that completed a pre-qualification without submitting any documented evidence and managed to receive top scores. And as far as I’m aware, this is the first time a pre-qualification without documented evidence has been attempted.
And the fact that it was very successful is a great thing, but also arguably provides more assurance from a prequel than you would get from a desktop assessment. So what was the nature of that assessment? How did that assessment unfold? So it was the having instead of submitting documented evidence to a pre-qualification assessor provider, we had that assessor actually come to come to the work location and perform the assessment.
Wow, so that’s a brilliant term. It’s a cool innovation because really like so much of the evidence that causes or so much of the safety clatter that we have is to gather evidence for these types of activities, these external audits, these pre-qualifications. So if you can eliminate the need to generate that evidence, then you should be able to reduce a significant amount of safety clutter, absolutely. what’s interesting or one of the interesting points there is that the, the assessor needs quite a different skill set. So you can’t just, you can’t just take your, your assessors that are evaluating documents and suddenly put them on a site.
I mean, that’s, that would be a recipe for disaster, I would imagine. So how, how was the assurance? There was, with it was everybody comfortable with how it was happening? Was it, was it a specific professor that came out in that field? It was, yeah. So I can, I can do a shout out to Sitewise who facilitated that pre-qualification. They were exceptionally good with it, and they had a sort of a specialized assessor come out and it’s basically to me it boils down to how you view evidence. And if you view evidence as everything has to be documented, then this sort of thing is going to be problematic.
But if you view evidence inherently as oral, which I would argue that legally it is, then this sort of thing is kind of an obvious better way to go about things. So it was it was cool to see that that theory worked. So would you get to the well, I mean, it started in my mind, it starts to beg the question of whether you should be outsourcing pre-quality, because if you’re doing it on your site, then shouldn’t you just be doing it?
Yeah, it’s it kind of becomes a little different from having an external audit which you know, face-to-face order which to me is a better quality. Technical problems here that work out here, Brenton. He’s just sent us a message and I’m assuming you we’re not just enjoying the, oh, we’ve just heard him, we got him. Oh, am I yeah? Oh, we’ve got audio and we’ve got video. Really appreciate that. I don’t know what happened suddenly.
I just, fell off the bloody face of the Earth. So, apologies for that. Thanks for filling time. so to hear what I’ve been here all the time. So, so great to hear what you’ve been up to. been absolutely stunning. But are we, are we ready to spin the wheel, boys? I think so. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, we’ve run out of things. Where’s the music? There we go. Capability of the safety sector. Now, I guess we could argue, to last week, Battlefront, isn’t it? It is the word ‘sector.’ Wow, okay, fair enough.
Just bouncing around. What, what are your thoughts? I think this might have been a bit that you suggested we take up, possibly. I probably would have worded it as the lack of capability in the safety sector, but I think that if I’m not being so cynical, it’s, I think there are some prevailing beliefs in the safety profession that are just simply wrong and need to be changed in order for any progress to be made. And so long as those beliefs, that’s it. As long as those beliefs continue, then we’re not going to go anywhere. Wow, Mike, that sort of sounds like it’s interesting. It’s all set around a tendency. That’s, that’s something. Andy, what are your thoughts?
Yeah, I’ll just find it was interesting, too interesting. It does use the term ‘profession,’ and that’s not what came up on the wheel. I don’t, I don’t want to correct this because I would never dream of doing that, but I find it interesting that we, we use ‘safety sector’ are in the original thing and, and, in conversations I’ve had recently, I try not, I’m reluctant to refer to it as, as a profession because I see a lot of practices that I would deem to be unprofessional by a number of different people within the industry, as such, other sector. I, I think for me, it goes back to what, what are the, what, what are the key skills?
What, what’s important? What are we trying to achieve in terms of capability? What does a capable safety person look like? And again, we go back to the Interpol Singapore record, which has got some details in there around people that are working within organizations. But what we seem to be lacking a little bit is the capability of people that are working across organizational issues. And, I think I found, I think that’s where the gap is. That’s where we need to tighten things up. So is that how you would define what we’re talking about, whether it’s sector or profession?
It’s basically people that hold their hand out and say that they’re a safety manager or advisor, a practitioner of some sort, however, yeah, yeah, I think there’s a definite divide there. I think someone that’s working in safety within an organization is quite different from someone that’s offering advice across businesses. Primarily, a safety manager in my mind is a manager, so, you know, the skills there should be heavily focused on management.
A safety consultant should that be a subject matter expert in various different fields, but what those fields are is often not clearly defined, and I find that quite a few external safety people push the limits a little bit sometimes. Like there’s certain things that I would never do because I’m just not comfortable doing it. Well, I don’t think that’s necessarily true across everybody, but you can understand why, you know, it’s a competitive market.
People want to make money, so yeah, you’re always gonna have that tension between the two. I’m not sure I am fully on board with the idea of an, of a safety person within a company primarily being a manager. I think I would liken it to sort of an in-house legal counsel, where you’re kind of a professional that’s embedded within the organization to make decisions, but not necessarily to… so to help inform decisions but not necessarily to make decisions. What’s interesting in itself. Have you ever, have you looked through, have you looked at the Singapore record?
No, I haven’t. Yeah, so that, having, you know, a bit of homework for you. Does if you get the chance between… Hopefully that disclaimer should be that should do it for now. I can’t imagine anyone giving us any feedback other than positive about your disclaimer, to do so you won’t need to rewrite a disclaimer this week. So maybe have a look at the Singapore Accord, because that’s aimed at safety managers within different levels of organizations. Substance safety coordinators, safety advisors, safety officers, senior safety managers, and it details the skills that they’re expected to have. And it’s quite interesting looking at that, because I think there’s quite a management bent on it, as opposed to safety knowledge. But again, the fact that you see it slightly differently to I do is possibly part of the problem, when we should really all be singing from the same song sheet. And the fact that we’re not creates uncertainty, and uncertainty is a little bit problematic in safety.
So, I mentioned three beliefs that I thought were widely held by people that hold themselves out to be safety professionals, and that were fundamentally wrong. Should we go through those? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Loved it. So, the first one is, it’s one that we’ve actually already talked about, which is the idea that we need to move beyond compliance, and this belief that moving beyond compliance we’re achieving more in the safety space. But from my argument, the idea of moving beyond compliance loses a bit of meaning, and so that’s the first one. The second one is that if it’s not documented, it didn’t happen, or that processes and things need to be documented for evidence. Yeah, and I think that’s a fundamentally wrong belief to have.
The third thing is the idea that it must be measured to be managed, and the idea that safety can be reduced to a series of numbers that light up your traffic light dashboard and tell you whether you’re safe or not. I think that’s… I think if that’s your belief, if that’s your initiative, then you’re misleading yourself. Yes, and in the role that I have, I often come across that document-driven mentality. If it’s not written down, it didn’t happen. Interestingly, I was just reading a case this morning, a forestry case. I want to give that a read this morning. No, yes. So, it’s another private prosecution, which would be something I think we should touch on in future episodes, because this seems to be becoming more and more common. So, it was a forestry company, and they had a fatality. One of the lead breaker elders got hit by a block, which is on the cable that they used to haul the logs across the valley.
WorkSafe didn’t prosecute, but the family brought a private prosecution, and it was heard in court last three days, I think. And just… I mean, I’m only reading this from media, so you’ve just gotta put that disclaimer out there. And one of the things that said is that they had lots and lots of safety documentation. So, this logging company had lots and lots of safety documentation, possibly what people would expect in the industry. But again, it’s that whole thing that doesn’t… The amount of information you’ve got is of secondary importance to actually what’s happening. It could even be worse than that.
Having rooms of information can actually be evidence that you’re not doing everything reasonably practicable. Because if you’ve declared that you’re going to do something to keep people safe, then you’re also declaring that that’s reasonably practicable. And then if you turn around and not do that, or not do it to a hundred percent, then that’s actually evidence for a prosecution against you. So not only is it not being effective in terms of keeping people safer, you’re actually just creating a database of liability, and they can be used against the organization. So if, for example… So I’ll just tap into your legal brain a second then. So if something like this happened, and then you immediately tighten up procedures, protocols, etc., is that effectively you admitting a degree of guilt to some extent?
Yeah, you’re basically retrospectively saying that these things were reasonably practicable to do, and we haven’t done them, and therefore we end up in that space. Yeah, so there’s that potential for that to be used against you. And that’s what we’re talking about now is really fundamental to moving forwards and seriously, isn’t it? So when we even though this topic is about capability, it’s being able to have these conversations with people who understand this. And I think if we look at the capability within the profession, we’ve got to go back to the learning pathways and help people enter the industry.
And it even ties back into that whole concept of what is a generalist, I think. And, you know, you’ve… You’ve come into safety. Your role is largely safety, right? Yeah, yeah. Is safety your highest qualification? Yes, on the qualifications framework. Yes, but you’ve got other specialties that have led to that. So when you do your safety, you’re actually anchoring it in previous learnings, previous education. That’s right. For you, is the law, right? Or ancient Greek? Yeah. And for me, for me, it’s education. So, I get quite interested in this. I think the first qualification, the first sort of post-level three qualification that you do is always your anchor point.
That’s always where your initial expertise exists, so you then learn anything else, but you’ve always got that slight bent on it of where you came from. And it’s interesting. It’d be interesting to do a survey. Maybe we could do this about safety professionals and where they’ve come from in terms of what’s their first qualification and what’s the last qualification. Because I think we’re all, in some way, even a generalist, would be sort of a specialist. Yeah, yeah, I think I know what you mean. I don’t know if I’ve explained that particularly clearly. You could probably sum it up in three words, but that’s…
I think I find that quite interesting. That, you know, there’s certain things I would never offer legal advice to anybody because I’ve never studied the law. But if somebody wants to develop a training course, my background’s in education. That’s where my strength would lie. And that’s… That’s why I think the capability is understanding what people’s strengths are and how they can work with that and push on together. I touched on that in the last show when I mentioned that a lot of the tertiary education courses in health and safety, through a science pathway, they’re usually run by the science department. And I think that could be part of the problem why these beliefs sort of continue to prevail, is because they’re not getting that sort of input from the other professions. So, you know, when I did the law unit at the tertiary institution I went to, it was just so… There was so much missing, and it was a little bit misguided.
And I see it play out with safety practitioners. They think that there’s only one act out there, and they think that there’s only, you know, a handful of regulations. Actually, there’s probably dozens and dozens of Acts that apply in any given situation, and safety is important, but it’s not the only one, and sometimes not the most important one, and it’s sometimes not the most applicable one. Oh, absolutely. I mean, that was the case a few years ago when I looked at the New Zealand cricket and the opportunities for spectators, particularly children, to be struck by a cricket ball in the crowd.
And I was sort of weirding my way through health and safety legislation, and I happened to mention it to you, and you said maybe you should look at a different piece of legislation. And we looked at… What was it now? It was the… The landowners act or something, wasn’t it? The Occupiers Liability Act. It was the Occupiers Liability Act. And we ended up finding some case law from the House of Lords in the UK from 1829, shopping from the shop to home, right past the Oval cricket ground, got struck by a cricket ball, and she took it all the way to the House of Lords, and the three Law Lords basically said that she knew there was a cricket game going on, so the cricket authorities had no case to answer, which is firstly, the game continued, and again continued, and, .. Yes, I think that that’s a huge piece of it.
And when I think about the amount of law that I studied in my tertiary qualification, my safety tertiary qualifications, it was absolutely negligible. I think it was… It was tiny. We looked at maybe three or four pieces of case law, but we didn’t go the breadth of actually tons of different laws apply and have safety implications in them. That’s right. And just concepts that don’t aren’t typically looked at when it comes to health and safety, like the idea of voluntary assumption of risk, or, you know, if something’s so routine in every day that you should already know that there’s a risk there, such as the cricket ball when you’re walking past the cricket stadium.
Yeah, I saw a post on LinkedIn recently about someone following the White Island tragedy prosecutions by WorkSafe, and the topic of discussion was about the use of waivers or disclaimers. And I saw a lot of safety people chiming in, saying, you know, ‘I can’t believe people still use waivers. They have no effect in health and safety law.’ Which is correct. I don’t believe that they have any effect in health and safety law, also. But health and safety is not the only act. There’s dozens of other acts. So, they might have little utility in safety, but they might have a waiver might have a lot of utility in occupiers’ liability law.
And it’s not just law. It’s common law as well. It’s a part of law, but it’s not just legislation, I should say. It’s also common law. And it’s not just law. It can also be contractual. And I’m pretty sure if people had a decent read of their insurance policies, they would probably be required to have a waiver in just about everything, insofar as it can be applied legally. So, you know that’s that we seem to have blinkers on as a profession, that there’s only one act, but there’s many acts, there’s… And the law of evidence is another one, that’s a whole body of case law and acts that influence the way evidence is assessed and rated and taken into account. And again, we’re just stuck in this rut of everything must be documented. If it’s not documented, it didn’t happen. And it’s just… Nothing could be further from the truth. Yeah, no, I think… I don’t think we’re proving that by… By videoing this, right? This isn’t documented. This is… This is a video, and I’m back. Excellent. Good to have you back. I don’t know what’s going on. I think I’ve got… I’ve got to humbly apologize for my clearly my technical incompetence. We tried our best to hold it together, but, you know… Actually, but that raises… You know what just happened to us. I mean, we’re… We’re taking risks, right? With what we’re trying to do here.
And I know the show’s probably going a little bit off-topic maybe, and… And we’re… We’re having this conversation, but we’re taking risks by running this live, right? We are doing this live. We are not pre-recording this. And some people may look at them and go, ‘Wow, you guys are crazy.’ We thrive. We’re living on the edge, right? The sheer excitement of being live is just phenomenal, right? however, with that… With risks… I guess… And that’s what we… maybe another topic to talk about and put on the spinning wheel of death is… Is risk, at least two possible outcomes, right? There’s… There’s the negative outcome, which generally we focus on in safety. And then there’s the positive outcome.
And I don’t know about you, you boys, but… But lining up… You know, I know there’s a bunch of scrambling before the show goes live. And… .. No matter how much planning and organization, but it’s the thrill, right? Of… Of being live and… And trying to think on our feet and be adaptive and innovative. And I guess that’s what today’s really brought us, right? that’s… All went… Also organized. I’ve even printed off show notes. I’ve… I’ve done some research. And it all went sideways, right?
But… .. We… We adapted and… And you’ve always held it together, and we’ve provided another hopefully entertaining and informative show. So, yeah, that’s what it’s all about, right? Absolutely. ‘Cause that’s a final question. Oh, you can do whatever you want, Andy. Why… Why… I mean, your background looks great, but why is it back to front? Is it back to front? It’s not deliberate. I don’t know why that’s the case, so I’m glad you pointed it out. I’ll cover up the writing so it doesn’t… I thought I’d just say that. That’s perfect. I mean, how cool is that logo, though?.. Where we’re going…
Going great guns. and I believe… I don’t want to give a spoiler alert here. I believe there could be some merch in production or in the pipeline. We’re not saying any more than that. No, we don’t want to… We don’t want to say any more. Christmas is just around the corner. Yeah. And listen, again, we’re not… We’re not doing this, you know, the merch will be there to help grow the show, right?
.. Because clearly, my technology needs some upgrading, so… He needs rented on an I.T. course. If anyone wants to sponsor my I.T.E., I’m more than willing. to shamelessly plug you and… .. And sell my soul. I’ve got two children I’m prepared to give up. (Laughter).. .. Just for some half-decent I.T. gear, so….. Hey, listen, as we… As we bring this short on here, let’s bring a little bit of normality back. Back to it,.. these mate, anything… I know I know I don’t get to talk to you about it.
I know the last time we spoke, you were down in Ohakune, the big carrot. I guess how did that go, and what have you got coming up in the next couple of weeks? Well, the holiday was awesome. Loved the town and planning to go back there as soon as I can. so nothing much over the next couple of weeks for me, because it’s kind of business as usual, which is nice for a change. It’s been a crazy couple of months. But I’m also thinking of recording a talk for the Circus of Safety, which is based on a talk that I delivered to the NZISM construction for And it’s about the idea of the…
The misbelief that everything must be documented, and if it’s not documented, it didn’t happen. So, it’s a short talk, and I’m thinking of making a sort of recording, discussing that in a bit more detail. I think that’s another idea. I’ve actually had some feedback from some of my clients that listened to you in that and said it was excellent, so if we can make it more widely available, I think that would be a really great thing. Yeah. And, that’s quite exciting. This, I know, unfortunately, I missed that event, so it’d be great to join in and listen in and have that available going forward. So, some exciting stuff coming up.
Andy, what about you, mate? it sounds like you’ve been gallivanting around the country again, having done this, well, and all that kind of exciting stuff. Absolutely. a little bit quieter the next couple weeks or so, much traveling, hopefully. Well, I just got an email now, so that might change. Yeah, I’m doing some development, development works from consulting, building some bow ties, writing and running a guidance document related to critical risk management, but we’ll talk about that another day.
No, I’m sorry. I’ve fallen asleep. It’s generating a lot of documented evidence, Brenton. That’s what he’s done, completely clearly. honestly, Andy, come on, mate. Let’s lift your game. I need to work today. I live, and you’ve got guaranteed income. I’ve got a son who needs some new shoes. Come on. Oh, wow, wow. So you’re putting your morals, your ethics aside to do nothing but make money? Wow. I just want my son to have some shoes. This show’s taking a turn because Brenton’s giving away his children and he’s and can’t clothe his children. Can I suggest a circus of safety logo-embedded pair of shoes for your son?
Wow. Fantastic. Well, yeah, no, excellent. Well, I think I’m going to be on the lookout for some new IT equipment over the next couple of weeks. Hopefully I can get that sorted and also, I’ve got a, I’ve got another life outside of work and safety, and, really excited. Got my, the BMX club that I’m heavily involved with, East City BMX, got our winter race meeting on Sunday, so that’s going to be quite exciting. Looking forward to that as we rapidly approach the BMX racing new season here in New Zealand. I’m quite excited, so, yeah, and a couple of hopefully big weeks before the next show, gentlemen. Now, listen, before we wrap up, we probably, when we started this thing, and I know Andy and I have had a conversation about this this week, actually, we probably didn’t quite realise, well, really, this is probably more therapeutic for the three of us than it was for anything else, but we’ve rapidly been growing followers, which is, is quite intimidating, especially when you start having IT issues, and we’ve actually now got a considerable number of followers on our LinkedIn page.
So, just wanted to shout out to one of them. I’ve randomly selected them. I’ve almost kind of created another spinning wheel of, of, I guess, followers, if you will. So, if any of our followers felt a bit dizzy this morning, it’s because I was spinning you on a wheel. So, the spinning wheel followers is what I’ve dubbed this one. Me and spinning wheels, I don’t know what it is. Christian Fournier, NHS consultant and author, thanks for following. Big shout out to you.
Listen, would love to get your thoughts. If there’s any topics, you’d like us to put on the spinning wheel, please reach out and, let us know. Otherwise, I guess, gentlemen, that’s a wrap, right?
This will be up on Spotify and all your other favourite podcast, what are they called, Des? You’re more of a podcaster. what are the things where you consume your podcast called? What are those, like, Apple Podcasts and, and there is a word for it, but it escapes me. it’s something podcast receiver or some more elegant way of saying that, but, oh, yeah, well, there we go. There’s a bit of research for us. If we’re providing materials for people to consume, which is a podcast repository. Podcast, that just sounds, no, that just sounds a bit… Yeah, I think it’s “suppository.” That’s something quite different. Oh, God. Okay. So, well, guys, great show again, great to chat, and, listen, we will no doubt see you in a fortnight. Awesome. Thanks, Brenton.